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布莱尔在清华

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布莱尔在清华

PRIME MINISTER:

Thank you, and it is wonderful to be here in Tsinghua University, thank you so much all of you for coming out to say hello to me.

I just wanted to say a couple of things by way of opening and then you can ask me questions, and you must feel free to ask me any questions that you want to ask. It is a dangerous thing for me to say, but nonetheless, you do that. The thing that is amazing today is that the UK is now the number one destination for overseas students from China. We have got double the number of Chinese students as the United States of America. I like that. And that is a measure of how much collaboration there now is between universities like Tsinghua and universities in Britain. And one of the main universities is the London School of Economics, and my wife - who is there - she went to the London School of Economics, she went to the London School of Economics and she got a better degree than I did.

So the thing that has impressed me most from being back in Beijing is just the amount of change in China, and I think for the future the relationship between my country, the UK and China is going to be very important. Because the amazing thing is that in the first six months of this year, even with Sars and the problems that you had here, you had a growth rate of 8%. In the next couple of decades you will become the number one economy in the world - 1.3 billion people. How you develop both economically and politically as a country is going to have a colossal impact on the whole of the world, and we need to make sure that countries like mine in Europe, countries like the United States, and countries like China are working closely together. And one reason why I wanted to come and open the Clean Energy Project is that one of the big challenges we will face will be about climate change, and how we make sure as we grow economically we do so in a sustainable way, in a way that protects the environment, and that collaboration is important too. So we have got so much work that we can do together. And you students here who are the future of China, the decisions you take, and the way that you take them, is going to impact on the whole of the world. You will be the leaders of this country in the years to come, and how you lead, and the values with which you lead, will make a difference even in my own country to the citizens there.

And finally I want to say a special word of thanks to Steven here, because he taught at Durham University, which is just by my constituency in England and it is where my father used to teach, so he comes in a very, very good line of teachers from Durham University. That is all I want to say by way of opening. Let's have your questions.

CHAIRMAN:

Thank you very much Prime Minister. It is my great pleasure on behalf of the Tsinghua staff today to present today's Q and A, and I believe there are students here today already prepared with questions and they are very excited to meet you, to exchange ideas with the British Prime Minister. And our students today - about 90 - are from a very mixed diverse body, including engineering, law school students, journalism and economics as well. So we are going to do the practice, every 3 questions we will invite answers from the Prime Minister.

QUESTION:

Good Morning Mr Prime Minister. Welcome to Tsinghua University and thank you for your speech. I am from the School of Journalism and Communications. I think the topic of your speech today is about the exchange between China and Britain, and I think the UK is your topic. And nowadays when we think about the UK we think about the war and the tragedy of Dr Kelly - I am sorry to say that. Until now there is no hard evidence to show that Iraq has the weapons of mass destruction, and the British press say that your worldwide tour is just a disguise of your diplomatic mistake. So I really want to know, do you think this time, at this tragic time, in your political career, and how do you feel? Have you ever regretted making the decision to start the war?

QUESTION:

I am from the School of Economics and Management. I feel a great honour to be here. You once remarked to the US Congress that Britain would be part of a changing Europe. My question is, if Europe refused to change in a British way, will Britain remain part of it?

QUESTION:

I am from the Department of Electronic Engineering. Mr Blair said ... years ago that part of your work is to keep the media in check. Is this true? Don't you think it is a ... of a free press?

PRIME MINISTER:

There is the British media out there, and they may have been thinking all the questions were going to be very easy questions for me, but I would say the first three questions have been very testing questions. So if I have been trying to keep the media in check, I think I have failed really on that. And I think the questions that you ask are important, because it is important that the media, and also people, are entitled to ask the difficult questions of politicians. And one part of developing politics in any country is the ability to question the political leaders. Now these guys out there, they are the British media and they ask me some pretty searching questions from time to time, and sometimes it is true, you get a little angry about it or you get upset by some of the line of questioning. But I still think, however difficult it is, it is always better that you are able to ask the politicians the difficult questions and therefore to answer them. OK? So I don't want to keep the media in check, but I do want the chance sometimes to explain what I think in the way that I think it. You see. And these two questions that you asked, one about the Iraq war and the weapons of mass destruction, and then about Europe, these are big and difficult questions in my country at the moment, but also for the world.

And on the weapons of mass destruction, I have no doubt at all that Iraq was trying to develop those weapons. There is a group of people in Iraq now who are looking both at the programmes and at the weapons themselves, the evidence of the weapons and the evidence of the programmes, and that group of people have just begun their work, and when they come to make their report on their work we will be able to see what they have uncovered, and then people will see what the truth is.

So that group is in there now, they are called the Iraq Survey Group, they will be looking both to interview the experts and witnesses that worked on the Iraq programme, and also examining the sites for evidence of the programmes and the weapons themselves. And I think when that happens maybe we will have a more informed debate about this whole question. But you asked me whether I regretted the Iraq conflict. I have to say no, I don't regret it. I believe no matter how difficult it was, that it was the right thing to do. I also think, not simply in terms of the security of the world, but in terms of the suffering of the Iraqi people, it is better that they are rid of Saddam Hussein as their ruler, because he was a very cruel man who killed many, many thousands, hundreds of thousands of their people. And I think these questions are very difficult in the international community today, but I took that decision because I thought it was right for my country and right for the wider world, and I still believe that it was. So we have to in the end, as political leaders, stand by the decisions we make, and that is the position I took.

In respect of Europe, that is a very good question, because it is part of the dilemma Britain has. Britain wants to be part of Europe, but it also wants Europe to change. Now what if Europe doesn't change? Well I think what is important is for Britain to go into Europe with the confidence that it can change in the way that we wish, because we can't separate ourselves out from the continent of which we are a part, and you know Britain is part of the European continent, and so I think it is important that we remain part of Europe, I think that is important for economic reasons and for political reasons. And when we were talking about China earlier, we said it was 1.3 billion. Even when we have the 10 new countries join the European Union, and there will be 25 countries in the European Union, even then we will only have 450 million people, compared with your 1.3 billion. So it is going to be vitally important for Britain to be part of that figure, bloc of countries. And so for us to separate ourselves from Europe I think would be a big mistake. So we can't be sure whether we are going to win all these battles in Europe, but I think we will, and I think it is important that Europe develops in a way that is open, that is engaged with the rest of the world, and I think it is important that Britain is part of the European Union. And even if it is unpopular and difficult, and it is sometimes in my country because some people don't like Europe, I still think it is the right thing for Britain to do, and again I believe as political leader, if I think it is the right thing then I should argue for it.

QUESTION:

I am from the School of Economics and Management. I would like to turn to a question about education exchange. As you have just mentioned in your speech, the large amount of Chinese students who are right now studying in Britain. However, applying for a scholarship in a British university has always been too difficult. Moreover, as we know that most British schools will charge overseas students a very high tuition fee which is much higher than that of the local students. So we can't help wondering what are the main purposes for British schools to accept Chinese students to strengthen the cooperation between China and Britain in education, to bring more variety into the British campus, or mainly for the commercial purposes.

QUESTION:

I am a third year student from the School of Journalism and Communications. In the recent central ... summit you mentioned that one country could invade and overthrow the government of another to liberate the people, and this issue was opposed by all other attending countries. So my question is, is there any solid foundation in the international law to support your issue?

QUESTION:

I am from Tsinghua School. I would like to ask a more relaxing question. Your wife, Mrs Cherie, is a very successful barrister in Britain and it is said that her earnings are much more than the Prime Minister's salary. According to the Chinese traditional thinking, it is very important for the husband to earn more than a wife, it is a very important sector to maintain the family stability. So my question is, could you tell me something of your skills in balancing or harmonising your family relationships?

PRIME MINISTER:

First of all, on the education exchange, well it is for all the reasons actually. I am not saying commercial reasons aren't a part of it, because the universities have got to be able to pay their way, but I think the main reason is educational exchange. Scholarships are difficult because we have got to fund them from government, and sometimes people will say to the government well you should be paying for our students, not paying for overseas students, so the scholarships can be difficult. But we are actually expanding our scholarship programme, and the fact that we have now got, I think in the last few years we have been hugely increasing the numbers of Chinese students, is an indication it may be difficult, but you are still managing to get there. So I hope, well you are from the School of Economics, that is OK. I don't know about the School of Journalism, I will have to think about that one. But you know I think educational exchange is going to be very, very important in the future, and I like to think as well that every time a student comes over to our country, when they go back I hope they are an Ambassador for my country back in China, or back in Russia, or whatever country they come from. And so we are trying to expand our university sector to take in more overseas students. So you apply for a scholarship and we will see what we can do.

The second question, well I don't believe it is right that one country can just go and invade another country and liberate its people, I think liberation of people is a good thing, but it has got to be done according to rules. But the reason why we took the view that we did in respect of Iraq was because we had a United Nations resolution that said that Saddam Hussein had to cooperate with the United Nations inspectors, and he wasn't. Now there was then a disagreement in the international community, that is true, but it is worth pointing out that we have got back together again in the United Nations Security Council, and on the reconstruction of Iraq there is now a new United Nations resolution, so we are working on that with everyone else. But I understand the difficulty, and I think it is really this. People worry about countries thinking they can run other countries, countries thinking if I don't like that government I can go in and change it, and I understand, and that is really what is behind your question, because really what you are saying is you have got to be careful having a situation where if America - probably what you mean - comes in and says well I don't like this government, I am going to go and get rid of it. I agree, you can't have a situation like that. But I do think we need to think as a world about what happens when you get a country that is doing something very dangerous for the outside world and its own people, how does the international community respond? You see we have got a situation close to here with North Korea, which your country - China - your government is trying to help resolve at the moment, and resolve it in a peaceful way. But the Chinese leadership accepts, like the British leadership, that you don't want North Korea to carry on developing a nuclear weapons programme. Now what happens if they simply say we refuse, we are going to carry on doing this, we don't care what the international community thinks. So there are difficult questions that arise. And if you look at China here, one of the things that is most amazing is the change, I can notice even from 5 years ago when I was last here, and people in China are getting better off all the time, their living standards are improving, their way of life is improving the whole time. But in North Korea these people are treated in the most terrible way. So yes we can't go and invade countries just because we want to, I agree with that, but on the other hand I think as the world moves closer together we have got to have some sense surely that a country can't just do whatever it wants, irrespective of the effects on the outside world or its own people. Now what we need are some rules in this situation, we need some law. I agree it is not right that if America decides this, or Britain decides this, or China decides this, then it just goes and does it. I agree, we need some rules in this situation, and that is what I was talking about in the American Congress, I was saying we can't just have a free for all where people do whatever they want, but on the other hand I think it is also true that as the world moves closer together, and as it matters more what countries do, because they can affect other countries, we can't just say a country behaves in a terrible way and we just let them do it. So that is the difficulty and we have got to try and resolve that with some rules and some laws that apply in those situations.

My wife is smarter than me, which is one reason why she chose to go into the law and not politics. But I sometimes read about what she is supposed to earn, and I just wish it was true. But you know I think nowadays women should be able to earn the same as men, and more if they are better. Don't you think? This is what is going to happen. Look at all the women here. Some of you are going to be lawyers, aren't you? Yes. Right. So if you are lawyers and China develops you are probably going to be earning a lot of money. And you don't mind earning more than your husbands, do you? Come on, you have got to get liberated. No, I think it is all right. I think whether people earn more depends on their own effort and it shouldn't depend on whether they are a woman or a man, it should be whether they are good or they are not good. That is my view.

QUESTION:

I am from the School of Law, Economics and Management. Seven days ago during your visit to the USA, newspaper cuttings commented that the UK had become the 51st state of the United States. I want your views about that comment.

QUESTION:

I am from the Computer, Science and Technology Department. Facing the tragedy of Dr David Kelly, you said that you had no intention of resigning over his death. Can you tell us frankly, what was your feeling when you heard the news on the plane to Japan, and how can you get through this political crisis and regain your people's trust?

QUESTION:

I am from the China Study Centre of the School of Public Policy and Management. I will ask you a question about an Asian EU. Some Asian scholars are thinking about the creating of an Asian EU, like the European Union in the east and south east Asia. Could I have your opinion of this reality and your imagine of its influence?

PRIME MINISTER:

On the 51st state, well that is what is often said by people who oppose Britain's strong alliance with the United States of America. And actually it is not true to say that we don't have our disagreements with the United States, sometimes we do. The Kyoto Protocol on Climate Change was an example of that. We are disagreeing with them at the moment over certain issues to do with trade. But I think it is important that Britain has a strong relationship with the United States because we are allies that have fought together in many difficult situations, not least World War II when we liberated Europe from fascism, and I am proud of our relationship with the United States and I am proud of the partnership that we have. But I don't think that we should see a strong relationship with the United States as the only strong relationship we can have. You see I think there are two views of the world today. One is a view where you have all sorts of different powers, different pools of power if you like, and they each compete with each other, or balance off with each other, so you have America here, you have Europe there, you have Russia there, you have China over here. I think that is a dangerous thing in today's world. I think it is better if we all come together in the same place, and I tell you why. Because if you think ahead in the dangers that we face, America is not going to fight China, China is not going to fight Russia, Russia is not going to fight Europe. My father fought in the Second World War, a state in Europe when the whole of Europe was fighting each other. In two World Wars in the 20th century millions of people died. And today Europe is at peace, it is one European Union. And I don't think the problem that the world faces is a problem of ... between two nations, the problems that we face are problems to do with global terrorism and weapons of mass destruction in the hands of irresponsible people, I think they are climate change, I think it is economic globalisation, I think it is to do with how we extend development to the poorest parts of the world. But I think those challenges are best dealt with by nations working together. So we have a close relationship with the United States, but we are also part of the European Union. I would like a closer relationship between the UK and China, because I think how China develops in this international framework is going to be vitally important. So my thoughts of the world and how it develops is one where we don't break up into these different parts and then all compete against each other, I think that is 19th century politics. I think 21st century politics is about nations coming together on a common agenda. Now that means in my view, not that we come together simply on an agenda that America sets, but that we come together on an agenda that we set together. Which is why I was saying in my speech to the American Congress the other day, it is not just about terrorism, it is also about the Middle East peace process, it is also about poverty in Africa, it is also about climate change. So we can put these things together and we can work together, and I think that the path for Britain is not to be worried about our alliance with the United States, I think it is good that we have got an alliance with the United States, but I think we should be using that influence to try and bring the United States and other countries together on a common agenda that we are all happy with, that your leadership here in China is happy with, the European Union, the Russians, countries like India that are developing too. We have all got to get in the same place on the same agenda, and that is what we are working towards, because I think that is the best thing for people ... I really do.

First of all just let me say this, because I have been saying this to my own press in the last few days. This is a desperately sad time for the family of Dr Kelly, and his funeral has not been held yet and I don't want to say more about that situation. Except to say that there will be, as there should be in a democracy, a proper and independent inquiry into what has happened. And on the issue to do with Iraq and the Iraq war, which I really think is what is the nucleus, as I was saying to your colleague a moment or two ago, there is going to be, and is now in Iraq, a group of people that are going to look at the whole issue, interview the experts who worked on the Iraqi programme, and the scientists, and discover exactly what has happened to the programme and to the weapons, and I think it is best that people wait until they make a judgment, until we have the facts back from that group. And of course it is a difficult situation, but as I said to your colleague a moment or two ago, in the end in politics when you come to a big decision, particularly one as big as war or not, you have got to do what you think is right and I believe that what we did was right. Now I know that that won't be ... with that, but that is what I believe and that is what I hold to.

If Asia wants to join together in a bigger trading and political bloc, I think that will happen in time. Whether it is exactly like the European Union, I can't be sure of. But the one thing for sure, and it comes back to the point I was making earlier, the world is moving closer together. Asia will want to trade more, to work more closely together, and I think those types of collaboration are going to happen right throughout the world, it is happening in South America now with Mercosur, it is happening obviously in the European Union, but it is happening right round the world for very, very obvious reasons. The globalisation and the changes in the economy and technology are meaning that people have got to work closer together. So I think that these developments will continue and I think that if Asia wants to put itself together, whether like the European Union or not, I think that is a good thing and I am sure that in the end that is a development, a process of coming together that is going to continue.

QUESTION:

I am from the School of Law. I have some question about big concerns from people around the world, especially of the fight against Sars, that is how to provide adequate healthcare for the poor people. My question is what do you think is the most effective way to solve this problem in Britain, and is it necessary to collect more money from the people and also have an option ... In answer to the first question you said the research group in Iraq is still there carrying out their work and they still have no report on the research there. But what makes you believe that Iraq has a weapons programme there?

QUESTION:

I am from the International Relations Centre of the School of Public Policy and Management. It seems that Great Britain and China have experienced very friendly and co-operative relations during the past 50 years, but during the recent international incidents, such as the Iraqi war or the Kosovo issue, has brought some negative impact to the Chinese people, especially to some government officials, experts and also to our college and university students. So I want to know what is your comment on the past bilateral relations and what is your expectation for those two government to develop in this coming decade?

QUESTION:

I am from Journalism School. I have a question. As we all know the British Museum has the largest collection of Chinese antiques out of China. Sorry I feel really nervous, and I like your tie.

PRIME MINISTER:

Inaudible.

QUESTION:

Thank you. How did the Chinese antiques find their way to the British Museum? And it is reported that many Iraqi antiques have been stolen and robbed. Will these robberies and thefts contribute to the collection of the British museum?

QUESTION:

I am a graduate student of Journalism School. I am really impressed about your strong support for the educational and cultural exchanges between China and the UK, but recently I have had news that some universities in the north-east of Britain have just ended the programme of Chinese culture and language. It is a pity. And those universities even include the prestigious University of Durham, and you just mentioned your father was there as a professor many years ago. And I also note you are an MP from that region as well. So do you think this change made by those universities will affect the Sino-British culture and educational cooperation. If not, what will you do about this?

QUESTION:

I am from the Automation Department. You are around my father's age and like my father. Would you tell me here honestly, like talking to your own children, that you never lied on the Iraq war?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well now, what have we got? First of all Sars and healthcare. I tell you what I think are the two things that are going to be most important in healthcare in the next few years are first of all the fact that people are going to live much longer, and I think there is going to be increasing difficulty therefore in societies providing those people work for those people that are retired and will need a lot more healthcare. I can't remember the exact figures, but it is something like 70% of the beds that are occupied in the British healthcare system in hospitals are occupied by people who are over the age of 60. So that is one issue that is going to be driving healthcare. The second thing is going to be science and genetics in particular. Because what is going to happen with science, and Britain has done a lot of work, as you may know, on the human genome project, what is going to happen is we are going to be able to map out the likely path of illness for any individual, almost at birth, that will happen in the next few years, and we will also be able to treat through genetic means a lot more of the illnesses that people have. So many of the things to do with cancers and other things, there are going to be dramatic changes there. Now what does that mean? I personally believe that the way that we have organised our healthcare system in Britain has one great strength and it has got one weakness. Our great strength is we are organising it on a collective basis for all people, irrespective of their wealth. So it doesn't matter whether you are rich or you are poor, you get treatment in our National Healthcare system, and I think that is a good principle and I want to keep that principle. But I think the weakness of our system and where we have got to develop it is that we need to have a far more flexible system of how we deal with healthcare, so that you have all sorts of different ways of helping people, some of it may be through work that is done in local communities in primary healthcare, some of it will be done in the hospitals, some of it will be done in managing chronic diseases. But it is going to be delivered in a different way from before. So the way I would like to see our healthcare system organised is organised on a collective basis in the sense that everyone gets access, no matter how healthy you are, no matter how poor you are, but that we are using the new technology and the science that develops to make it a much more individualised system of healthcare where the individual person gets the healthcare treatment in the place that they need it, rather than trying to treat everyone as if we were still living 30 - 40 years ago.

QUESTION:

... according to the press it says that many poor people have to wait for maybe 12 months to get their medical treatment ... how can you give them prompt medical care for the poor people?

PRIME MINISTER:

Actually people used to wait even longer than that in certain instances, but we are bringing those times down by increasing the capacity of the Health Service. So actually the average time that people wait for operations now is down to 7 - 8 weeks, and we are going to reduce that even further and actually now nobody is waiting over 12 months, and the majority of people will get treated, 70% of the people are treated within 3 months. So there is a way to go, but we are getting there. And actually for people in Britain today, particularly I think for poorer people who need access to healthcare, they don't want us to get rid of the National Health Service, they want to keep the National Health Service, and I think that is important for the future.

In respect of our bilateral relations, there will be disagreements, there was a disagreement over Kosovo and there was a disagreement over Iraq. But I think we can manage those disagreements and there is still an awful lot that we are doing together. So if you look at what is happening in the reconstruction of Iraq now, we have got a new United Nations resolution, that China has supported as well as other countries, and there will be a Donors Conference in October where I hope that China participates along with other countries. So there will be differences. We are never all going to agree in the international community, the question is how do we manage those disagreements. Do we fall out permanently, or do we say well we disagreed on this and now we have got to move on, and I think it is best to do it in that latter way.

Where is the man that liked my tie? Yes, I think I know what you were meaning about the collection of Chinese antiques. I am sorry about that, I think that is something that happened in history quite a long time ago. But as for the Iraqi antiques, the museum was plundered in Baghdad, but actually they have managed to get a lot of those antiques back and the museum is going to reopen, and certainly none of them are finding their way to Britain, and what is more we have made it clear that any antiques that do find their way to Britain will be returned to the Iraqi people, so I think that is important.

As for the educational programme, well obviously, since Steven here has been talking to me about it, I am going to have to go back and look at it. But universities, they may be doing it for all sorts of reasons, perhaps it is just financial reasons and difficulties that they have got, but that will happen from time to time. There is never enough money to do all the things that you want to do, but I can assure you that we will carry on welcoming Chinese students to the UK, and even if they can't come to the particular place in Durham, I am sure they can come to other places.

What would I say to my children? What I would say to them is this, that in the end as a political leader you have got to take the decisions that you think are right, and those decisions are sometimes very, very difficult. But I believe passionately in relation to Iraq, we could not allow Saddam Hussein to carry on developing weapons of mass destruction, and don't be in any doubt that he was doing it, because we had 23 different United Nations resolutions about the very issue of Saddam and weapons of mass destruction. So please don't anyone here think this is something that suddenly was dreamed up by the Americans or the British, it was there, it was a serious issue. That is why the United Nations inspectors were in Iraq throughout the 1990s. They were then forced to leave at the end of 1998, it was why they went back in in November after the United Nations resolution. So I don't have any doubt about the threat that he posed, and I don't have any doubt either about the danger of that threat in the hands of a man like Saddam. It is difficult for people here just to appreciate this, but out of a country of 23 million, 4 million of its people were in exile - 4 million of them were in exile. Literally tens of thousands of children used to die of malnutrition every single year, of preventable diseases, because of the way he ran the country. And to allow someone like that to carry on being a security threat to the world I thought was the wrong thing, so I took the action that I did. Now there will be people here, and I totally understand it, who disagree with that decision, and the difficult thing about being a political leader is that in the end you have to take the decisions that you believe are right and stand by them. And I took that decision that I believed to be right and I have to stand by that, and I get criticised by it, and that actually in the end is also important, because in my country, if the people disagree with me, they can put me out of office, they can vote me out and they can vote someone else in, and that is democracy. And so what you have got to do as a political leader in a democracy is you have got to say this is where I stand, that is what I believe. If you believe that, you can vote for me; if you don't believe it, you don't have to vote for me, you can vote for somebody else. Now I can't say more than that to you. I can only say that I took the decision that I believe was the right decision, and I think that in times to come people will look back on what has happened in Iraq and if we can make that country stable and prosperous and democratic, we can start getting peace in the Middle East, then removing Saddam Hussein will have been the starting point for change right across that region. Now I am aware, I agree, there is a disagreement, there is a disagreement between Britain and China about this issue. But in the end I have had to decide, as the British Prime Minister, what I think is right and do it. And if the British people disagree with it, they have got the right to say well we will put him out and we will put someone else in. Now that is democracy and it is important that every single person here thinks about that very, very carefully, because China is a country in a huge state of development and you want to develop in a way that is stable and secure because it is so important for the rest of the world. But when you are me, as the British Prime Minister, and you take a decision as difficult as that, you have to take it on the basis that you think it is right and you have to stick by it, and I took the decision I thought was right and I stick by it. And that is what I would say to my children or anybody else's children.

央视国际


  主持人(陈伟鸿):

  观众朋友,大家好,欢迎各位收看我们的《对话》节目。这里是我们设在清华大学的对话现场,稍候将有一位国际政坛的风云人物,要在这里和近百位的清华学子展开对话,这位对话嘉宾就是英国现任首相托尼·布莱尔。阔别五年,布莱尔再度访华,将会收到怎样的效果?他的这次中国之行,将会为中英关系的发展带来哪些新的信息?尤其令人关注的是,面对英国国内最新爆发的政治风波,作为首相的托尼·布莱尔将会做出怎样的选择呢?当然,还有更多更精彩的问题都在我们今天的《对话》节目当中。好了,稍后我们一块来关注托尼·布莱尔和清华学生的圆桌对话。

  布莱尔:

  谢谢清华大学给我这次珍贵的机会,我想说一些话,你们可以提问,什么问题都可以问,或者是一些很尖锐的问题。令人振奋的是,英国是中国留学生最多的国家,在英的中国留学生是中国人在美国留学人数的两倍。我很高兴,可以想象中国大学比如清华跟英国大学之间的合作有多么紧密。英国最主要的大学有伦敦经济学院,我的太太就在那里,她就是从这所学校毕业的。她毕业于伦敦经济学院,她的学历比我还高。这次我再次来到北京,给我最深刻的印象是看到中国巨大的变化,将来英国发展与中国的关系将会非常重要。非常令人振奋的是,尽管中国有SARS,还有其他的问题,上半年的经济增长率仍然达到8%。在未来的两个世纪,中国将会成为世界第一经济大国。中国有十三亿人口,中国在经济、政治上的发展,将对全世界有着深刻的影响。我们也要保证中国和英国、中国和美国紧密的合作,我们有很多事情可以合作。你们学生是中国的未来,你做的决定、执行的方式,即将对整个世界产生影响,你们是这个国家未来的领导人,你们的领导方式和你们的价值取向对英国人民也会产生影响!我的讲话完毕,请你们发问,谢谢。

  董关鹏(清华现场主持):

  谢谢布莱尔首相。现在我们就来开始提问,每提出三个问题我们请布莱尔先生回答。现在请我们的同学发问,同学们请提三个问题。

  布莱尔:

  你来点名,我来回答问题。

  董关鹏:

  请发问,很难让我指出让谁提问,请这位女同学。

  同学:


  布莱尔先生,早上好,欢迎你到清华大学来。谢谢你的演说,我的名字是陆娅楠,我来自新闻传播学院。现在当我们想到英国,我们会想起伊拉克战争,会想到凯利的悲剧,我很不情愿提到这些。到目前为止,还没有足够的证据能证明伊拉克有大规模杀伤性武器。你觉得这个时期,是不是你政治生涯中最严峻的时候?你是怎么想的?你对发动战争有没有后悔过?谢谢。

  董关鹏:

  请你们提问的时候尽量地简明扼要,第二个问题由这位男同学提问。

  同学:

  早上好,首相先生,我是杨伟,来自经管学院。我今天能够在这里感到非常地荣幸。您曾在美国国会上说,英国会参与改变欧盟的活动。我的问题是,如果欧盟拒绝按照英国提倡的方式来做,英国还会是欧盟的一部分吗?谢谢。

  董关鹏:

  再来一个问题,好,左边这位女士。

  同学:

  早上好,布莱尔先生。我的名字是何凡,来自电子工程系。前几天你们对有关的媒体进行监管,这是事实吗?你不觉得这是违反新闻自由的行为吗?谢谢。


  布莱尔:

  谢谢。我们可以看到英国的媒体就在那里,他们也许在想这个问题对我来说是非常简单的。但我觉得前面三个问题非常有挑战性,所以如果我想控制媒体的话,那我肯定失败了。这上面的就是英国的媒体,有时候他们提的一些问题让人很难过,有时候你会对一些问题感到非常气愤或者很伤心。但我仍然认为无论多么困难,你们能够对政治家提出政治的难题让他们回答,这是非常不错的。我并不希望控制媒体,我只想以我的方式表达我的观点。你们刚才提到的两个问题,关于伊拉克战争和大规模杀伤性武器,以及欧洲这些问题,无论对英国还是世界都是比较难的。对于大规模杀伤性武器,我可以毫无疑问地告诉你们,伊拉克是在发展大规模杀伤性武器。现在我们在伊拉克有一个专门的调查小组,他们正在做有关的取证工作,这组人刚刚开始他们的调查工作。当他们递交他们的调查结果的时候,我们才能知道他们的发现,然后人们才能知道事实的真相。所以这个调查小组正在那里,我们称之为伊拉克调查小组,他们将会采访有关的专家和目击者,而且他们会到现场去采集有关杀伤性武器的证据。如果杀伤性武器的证据成立的话,关于这个话题也许我们会有更多更为正式的讨论。你问到我对于伊拉克战争会不会感到后悔,我会说,不,我不会感到后悔。我相信无论有多么的困难,这是正确的决定。同时我也觉得这不仅是对世界安全的考虑,同时也是为了伊拉克苦难的人民。推翻萨达姆政权对伊拉克人民是有好处的,因为萨达姆是一个非常残酷的统治者,他残杀了无数无辜的人民。我觉得这个问题对当今国际社会来说也是很难的,我做出那样的决定,因为我觉得这无论对于我的国家还是世界来说都是正确的。到现在为止,我仍然认为是正确的决定。所以作为国家的领导人,我做出了这样的决定。关于欧洲这是一个很好的问题,因为这是英国所面临的一个两难的抉择,英国想成为欧盟的一部分,但同时也希望欧盟做出改变。如果欧盟不改变的话,英国加入欧盟非常重要。并且我们相信,英国能以自己的方式去改变欧盟。因为我们不能把自己从欧洲分离出来,我们是欧洲大陆的一个部分,所以我们继续保留作为欧洲大陆的一个部分。这无论在经济角度和政治角度考虑都是非常重要的。刚刚我提到中国有十三亿人口,尽管我们有十个国家新近加入欧盟,现在欧盟共有二十五个国家。尽管这样,我们也只有四亿五千万人口,而中国一个国家却有十三亿人口。所以英国作为欧盟各国里面的一部分这是非常重要的。我觉得把英国从欧盟里面分离出来是个重大的错误,我不知道在改变欧盟的努力中英国能否成功,但是我觉得我们会的。而且我觉得欧盟应该保持开放,加强与世界其他国家的合作。我觉得英国作为欧盟的一部分非常重要,尽管有时这个观点在英国很不受欢迎,有些人并不喜欢欧洲。但我觉得这是英国应该做的。并且我认为,作为一个政治领导人,假如我认为是正确的,我会坚持这么做。谢谢。

  董关鹏:

  谢谢。现在由坐在后面的同学发问。

  同学:

  谢谢,早上好。我是梁萌,来自经管学院。我想问一个关于教育交流的问题,您刚才在演讲当中提到有大量的中国学生在英国留学,然而在英国的学校申请奖学金是非常困难的,而且很多英国大学收取留学生的学费远远高于本地学生。所以我们在想,英国的学校录取中国留学生的动机,是希望加强与中国的教育交流,活跃英国学校的校园?还是主要出于商业的考虑?谢谢。

  同学:

  布莱尔先生,欢迎您来到清华大学。我的名字是郝育倩,是新闻传播学院三年级的学生。在最近的国家领导人峰会当中,您提到一国的政府可以入侵和推翻另一国政府的统治,来解放那里的人民。这个观点被与会的其他政府反对。所以我想问您,您提出的这个问题有没有《国际法》的充分支持?

  学生:

  早上好,布莱尔先生。我是栾鹏,来自法学院,我想会问一些比较轻松的问题。众所周知您的夫人切丽女士在英国是一个非常成功的律师,据说她的工资比首相的工资高得多。中国传统的观点认为,丈夫应该比妻子赚得更多,这是保持家庭稳定非常重要的因素。我的问题是,您有什么技巧来平衡您的家庭关系?谢谢。

  布莱尔:

  首先,关于教育交流,这有很多因素,商业的考虑也是其中之一,因为教育机构也有开支。我觉得关于教育交流的问题是,最主要的原因是很难获得奖学金,学校从政府那里获得资助。有时候人们会跟政府抱怨,我们的钱是付给我们国内的学生而不是其他国家的学生,所以留学生要获取奖学金是很难的。实际上,我们现在正在扩大我们的奖学金。现在的情况是,在过去的几年里,中国到英国的留学生大量增加。尽管在英国获取奖学金很难,但是人们仍然争取到英国留学。所以我希望,我们都读经济学 ,我不是修新闻学的。我考虑在未来教育的交流将会非常重要,同时我也在考虑每个到来的学生,当他们回自己的国家,我希望他能够作为代表英国的使者。当他们回到中国或者俄罗斯,无论他们来自哪个国家。所以扩大我们的招生,招收更多的留学生。所以你可以申请奖学金,我们会尽量考虑的。关于下一个问题,我认为一个国家到另外一个国家,去解放那个国家的人民是不对的。当然,我知道解放人民是件好事,但是这需要符合规矩。人们担心一个国家想要去统治另外一个国家,那么如果一个国家不满意另外一个国家的政府就去推翻它,这是你问题背后的逻辑。因为你问题的含义是,必须谨防陷于某种情况。如果美国,也许你指的是美国不满意别的国家的政府,美国就会去消灭它。我同意,这样的情况可能发生。但我觉得我们需要考虑,假如有一个国家它做的事情,对其他的国家还有本国的人民非常危险,国际社会会怎么反应呢?我同意,我们需要阻止这样的事情发生,这是我在美国国会的时候提出的,我说我们不能单纯地自由行动,人们不能随心所欲。同时,世界更紧密地联系着。一个国家的行动事关重要,因为它会影响其他的国家。我们不能说一个国家的行径非常恶劣,我们就纵容它。所以要解决它是一个难题,我们可以运用很多法律和规则。另一个问题,首先,我的夫人比我聪明,所以她选择法律而不是政治。有时候我看见关于她的收入的报道,我希望这是真的。但是我想,现代女性应该赚得跟男性一样多,而且越多越好。这是完全可能的。看一下现在这里所有的女性,其中一部分也会成为律师,是吧。你不会介意你赚的比你的丈夫多吧?这里的女士们,你会介意比你的丈夫赚得多吗?你们都有赚钱的自由,人们赚钱的多少在于他们付出的努力,而不取决于他们是男性还是女性,而只能说明他们优秀或者不优秀。这是我的观点。

  董关鹏:

  接着提问。

  学生:

  首相先生,欢迎到清华来。我是赵晓东,来自经济管理学院法学系。几天前,在您到美国的访问中,有报纸评论说英国是美国的跟随者,您是怎么看待这些评论的?

  董关鹏:

  这边。

  学生:

  早上好,首相先生 ,欢迎您到清华来。我是林楠,来自计算机科学与技术系。面对凯利事件,您决定不辞职。您能不能坦诚地告诉我们,当您在去日本的途中,听到凯利自杀的时候,您当时的感受是怎么样的?您将怎么处理这个政治危机,重新获得人们的信任?谢谢。

  学生:

  谢谢,首相先生,我是高宇宁,来自中国研究院公共政策和管理系。我要问一个很专业的领域,一些亚洲学者讨论在东南亚建立一个亚洲联盟,就像欧洲的欧盟。您能说一下建立一个亚洲联盟的可行性,以及您认为它会有什么样的影响?谢谢。

  布莱尔:

  首先,谁是第一发问者?哦,是你。人们经常会问到,英国跟美国的强大联盟。但是我们不能说我们之间就没有分歧,有时候我们也会有不同意见,比如在政治 ,还有气候变暖的问题上。在某些问题上,我们对贸易也有分歧。但我觉得英国与美国建立起强大的联盟是有重大意义的。因为我们在一些非常困难的时刻联手作战。第二次世界大战就不用说了,我们联合把欧洲从法西斯手里解放出来。对于我们与美国的关系,我感到非常自豪,我对我们的伙伴关系感到非常自豪。但我并不认为与美国的良好关系是我们所能具有的惟一的关系,现在这个世界上有两种观点。有一种观点认为,不同的国家他们互相竞争或者互相平衡,所以这里是美国,那里是欧洲,那里是俄罗斯,中国在这里。我认为在现今的世界上这种观点是很危险的,我认为大家应该走到一起。我要告诉你为什么,假如您想一下我们现在的处境,美国不会打中国,中国不会打俄罗斯,俄罗斯不会打欧洲,在二十世纪的两次世界大战中数以百万的人死亡。而现在欧洲处在和平当中,欧洲国家结成一个联盟 。我不认为现在世界面临的问题是各国之间的战争,而现在面临的问题是国际恐怖主义,大规模杀伤性武器,还有极少数的破坏分子,气候变化、经济全球化,发展贫穷国家的经济。我觉得应付这些挑战的方法,是各国人民的合作。所以我们跟美国有很好的关系,同时我们也是欧盟的一部分。我也愿意发展与中国更紧密的关系,因为我觉得中国的发展在国际上是非常重要的。所以关于怎么样发展,我的看法是我们不要把不同国家划分成不同的势力,互相竞争,这是二十世纪的政治。我觉得二十一世纪的政治是各个国家联合起来,制定一个共同的行动纲领。这意味着制定这个共同的行动纲领,并不是单纯地由美国提出来的,而是我们大家共同制定的。这就是我为什么在美国国会提出这不仅仅是关于恐怖主义,同时这也关于中东和平进程。关于非洲的贫困,关于气候的变化,我们可以把所有这些事情拿到一起共同去研究解决。所以我觉得英国的任务不是去担心与美国的联盟,我觉得我们应该跟美国保持良好的盟友关系,我们应该把这种影响扩大开来,推动美国和其他国家的关系,制定起大家都能接受的共同的行动纲领。中国的领导能够接受,欧盟也能接受,俄罗斯也能接受,还有像印度这样的发展中国家。大家都走到一起,制定共同的行动纲领,这是我们努力的方向。因为我觉得这对于将来的安全和和平至关重要,我坚信这一点。首先我要说的是,在过去的几天我没有在英国,凯利的死对他的家庭来说是个悲剧,而我不能给予他们帮助。我非常不希望更多地提到这个情况。我只想说希望他灵魂永存,希望他的家人节哀顺变。在伊拉克战争当中惟一的问题是,正如我刚才对一位女生所说的在伊拉克有一个调查小组正在做全面的调查,采访伊拉克武器专家和科学家,并且在做武器调查的取证工作。我想人们应该等到调查小组回来之后再做出结论,因为情况很困难。正如我刚才跟你们一位所说的,作为一个政治家,尤其当你要做出是否战争的决定的时候,你要按照你认为正确的方向去做出决定,并且坚信你的决定是正确的。我相信在这里肯定有人持不同意见,但这是我所相信的,也是我所坚持的。谁是最后一个,噢 ,如果亚洲想要联合起来结成更大的非政治贸易组织,我觉得这是可能的,但是会不会像欧盟一样,这点我不确信。但是可以肯定的是,就像我刚才所提到的,世界一体化的进程在加快,亚洲国家会加强相互之间的贸易和合作。我想这种合作将在全世界范围内发生,就像在南美洲和欧盟,并且在全世界范围都会发生。原因是显而易见的,世界一体化,经济和技术全球化意味着人们必须更紧密地合作。所以我觉得这种发展会继续,亚洲国家应该加强合作,不管是不是像欧盟那样,都是有意义的。我相信最后国家之间都会加快合作的进程。

  董关鹏:

  我要宣布还有最后三个问题。

  布莱尔:

  可以问五个。

  董关鹏:

  好的,可以问五个问题。这位男同学。

  学生:

  早上好,布莱尔先生。我叫田培杰,来自法学院。我要问的问题与SARS有关。人们有很多担心,那就是怎么样在全球范围内给贫穷的人群提供足够的医疗保障。我的问题是,在英国,您觉得怎么样才能有效地解决这个问题?谢谢。

  学生:

  我有另外一个问题,我是胡薇薇,来自国际关系学院政策和管理系。我想要知道的是您对中英双边关系的看法,还有您对以后发展两国关系有什么期望?谢谢。

  学生:

  早上好,布莱尔先生,很荣幸能够把您请到这里来。我是徐博,来自新闻学院。众所周知大英博物馆有大量的中国文物,对不起,我感到非常紧张。我喜欢你的领带。

  布莱尔:

  我喜欢你的衬衫。

  学生:

  谢谢你。如果有一天你的孩子问你,中国的文物怎么跑到英国博物馆来,你怎么回答?据报道,伊拉克博物馆的很多文物被盗窃,这些失窃的文物会对大英博物馆的收藏有所帮助吗?谢谢。

  学生:

  布莱尔先生,欢迎你到清华。我是黄瑞,是新闻学院的毕业生。您对中英教育交流的支持给我很深刻的印象,但最近我看到一些消息说英国东北部一些大学取消中国文化和语言的专业,我感到非常遗憾。而这些学校里面,甚至包括知名的德姆大学,您觉得这些学校的决定会影响中英文化和教育的合作吗?如果会产生这样的影响,您觉得有什么解决的方法?

  学生:

  早上好,布莱尔先生,我是涂国玉,来自自动工程系。您大概是我爸爸的年龄,你像我父亲一样慈祥。您能不能像您对您的孩子那样老实地告诉我们,您在伊拉克战争当中没有撒谎?谢谢。

  布莱尔:

  第一个问题是SARS和医疗保障。我个人认为我们在英国的医疗保障体系有一个明显的优势,也有一点不足。优势是我们建立起记录所有人健康的每一方面的一个庞大的数据库系统,所以不管你是穷是富,你都能够得到国家医疗中心的治疗。我觉得这是一个很好的系统,我们会继续保持。但我们这个系统的缺点,也是我们需要改进的地方,那是我们需要有更为灵活的医疗保障系统。所以我们能有各种各样的方法来帮助人们,有一些人可以通过本地社区和私人医院,有些人在医院里获得医治,而有些人则通过疾病控制中心。所以人们可以通过不同的方式获得治疗。关于中英双边关系,这是谁提的问题?我们是有分歧,问题是我们怎么去处理这些分歧。我们永远从这些分歧中退出?还是说我们继续合作,暂时放下分歧意见?我想这是我们能做的最好的方法。有位同学说他喜欢我的领带,您指的是中国文物收藏,我表示遗憾,这是很久以前历史遗留的问题。至于伊拉克留下来的文物,巴格达的博物馆在伊拉克战争中被摧毁。但实际上人们会将把伊拉克的文物送回来,巴格达博物馆也会重新开放。当然文物不会跑到大英博物馆,有一点很明确的是,属于伊拉克的文物一定会返回给伊拉克人民,这一点至关重要。谁问到关于教育交流的问题?学校做出的决定可能会出于各种各样的原因,或者是财政困难,或者是其他原因,这是经常发生的事情。没有足够的钱去运转,没有钱去做你想做的事情。但我可以向你保证,我们会继续欢迎中国留学生到英国来学习。如果他们不能到某一个学校,他们肯定能到另外一个学校去。谁是最后一个问道我会怎么回答我的孩子?我想要说的是,作为一个政治领导人,你要做出你认为正确的决定。有时候要做出这些决定是很困难的,但我充分相信,在与伊拉克的关系中我们绝不允许萨达姆发展大规模杀伤性武器,毫无疑问,他是在发展大规模杀伤性武器。因为联合国有二十三个鉴定认为,萨达姆在发展大规模杀伤性武器。这里还会有人认为这是英国或者美国虚构的吗?事实就是如此,这是很严肃的问题。这就是为什么联合国检查人员整个九十年代都呆在伊拉克,然后他们在1998年底被迫离开。但是在联合国做出决定之后,却在十一月又回到伊拉克。毫无疑问,萨达姆大规模杀伤性武器给人类造成极大的威胁。同样的,无可置疑萨达姆大规杀伤武器给伊拉克人们造成的危险。这里的人绝对不会赞同萨达姆的做法。伊拉克有两千三百万的人口,有四百万的人口被驱逐出境,每年有数万的儿童死于营养不良和可以避免的疾病。所有这些都是因为他的统治所造成的。允许这样的一个执政者来扰乱世界安全,我认为这是错误的。所以我做出那样的决定,我理解会有人不赞同我的决定,作为一个政治领导人的困难在于你必须做出你认为正确的决定,而且坚持你的立场。我做出了决定,我相信这是正确的,如果你也有同样的信条,你可以支持我。如果你有不同的信条,你可以不支持我,你可以支持其他人。我不能说更多的了,这是我要对我自己的孩子以及别人的孩子要说的话。谢谢。

  主持人:

  这是一次与众不同的对话。我想布莱尔愿意选择这种圆桌对话的方式,是因为他希望在一种更平等、更开放、更轻松的氛围当中和中国的学生来畅谈中英两国的往来和交流。布莱尔上任之后,让曾经跌宕起伏的中英关系走上了健康良性的发展道路。如今,阔别五年之后的再度访华,让人们对中英两国全面伙伴关系更充满了期待和信心。虽然说此刻布莱尔和清华学子的圆桌对话已经结束了,但是我相信,在中英两国之间,在民间、在政府更多的交流,更多的对话正在展开。好了,这里是《对话》,谢谢各位的收看。我们下周同一时间再见。

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